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and this is weapons

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this was a very straightforward guy hard

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charging honest as a day as long I mean

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I was really impressed by the guy and I

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was impressed that he would put me into

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the circle of trust and talk to me at

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all and I agreed I was not going to do a

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report I never did a news story about

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him I never mentioned his name

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um and uh and you know years later now I

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feel comfortable in doing that because

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he's out of government but he was he

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came back from that meeting and was

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pretty disappointed he said dick tomata

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still alive yeah yes man I would love to

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hear from dick D'Amato what that

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experience was like people have tried to

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reach out to him uh other people because

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the name has filtered out over the years

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but yeah he's he wants nothing to do

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with it well now yeah and now it's gonna

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be crazy when he came back from that

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meeting and we had a conversation he was

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disappointed that he wasn't able to

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confirm the kinds of things that Lazar

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had told us and that we'd reported but

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he said look I think it is entirely

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feasible that this UFO cover-up exists

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within a private company a company he

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said it could be done in a company like

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EG and G or lock or Northrop one of

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those big defense contractors and he

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said here's the deal when it comes out

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if I can prove that they've been

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diverting money from National Security

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efforts and programs to keep this UFO

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cover-up going people are going to go to

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prison

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which if you think about it that might

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be the best reason of all for the UFO

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cover-up is if people think that their

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butts are on the line they'll go to

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behind bars for or lying about it to

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Congress the American public and and

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maybe diverting money do you think this

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is a big type of conversation we're in a

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new era hopefully where Arrow all domain

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anomaly resolution office is not going

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to be a Project Blue Book that they are

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going to actively research which we have

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indications they are and that they're

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going to have a forward public-facing

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element where they're not confusing the

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the American public and Global public

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they're going to be straight so my

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question to you is and there's a big

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topic conversation do you think people

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should go to prison if they've been part

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of the UFO cover-up

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I don't know I you know I guess it would

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be depend on how egregious The Acts were

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that they did I mean I can understand in

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1947 something strange crashes in the

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desert outside New Mexico we've just

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come out of World War II it's been a

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terrible uh catastrophic War all over

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the globe do we really what happens how

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will the public react to this unknown

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threat a really exotic

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um possible threat I mean people might

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freak out you know we I could see them

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deciding they don't want to put the

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American public through it especially

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because no one knew for sure what that

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what it was how the technology worked

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could we duplicate it did the Russians

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know about this or what in in defense of

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the UFO cover-up

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Secrets should be kept some but as Bob

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Lazar has always said

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the general topic that's outside of the

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scope of a national security issue for

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our country the general public has has a

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has a need to know and a right to know

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and we feel a duty to try and find out I

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don't think anybody involved with the

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cover-up should face any prison time I

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don't care what they've done I think

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there should be immunity and I think

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that the import this topic is so much

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more important than putting somebody

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maybe with a family Behind Bars because

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they were doing what they thought was

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right for the country even if they lied

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to Congress and Senate and even if they

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hid and misappropriated funds I would

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like if we said give everybody immunity

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let's bring Humanity up to date with

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what we know

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uh so I would like to to say that I

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nobody should be should be in my

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personal opinion should be in trouble

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for that I think we should move on let's

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move on I'm with you on that up to a

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point there are lines that should not be

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crossed like what if you threaten to

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kill somebody or if you actually do

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silence them got you through violence

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got you agreed agreed agreed if somebody

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did that in the past yeah [\h__\h] lock

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them away yeah so dick dimano comes out

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he says look I think this program could

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be housed in a private uh company as a

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way to keep Congress from finding out

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about it and if that happens and we can

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prove it somebody would go to prison I

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had the feeling from that conversation

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on that he was going to stick with it so

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I told him about Al O'Donnell without

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telling him who aladonna was I said I've

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been meeting with this guy who told me X

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and I gave him the story could I meet

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him do you think he'd be willing to talk

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to me off the record I said well let me

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ask him so I reached out to Al hadn't

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talked to him in a while and I told him

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about uh senator uh dick D'Amato and the

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senator Byrd and what they want to do

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and Al said okay I'll be with I'll talk

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to him and he did and um and so he

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didn't Al did not fess up he didn't give

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him the whole uh routine that he had

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told me about but he told him some of it

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and he said look I'll talk to you

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further if my old boss herb Greer one of

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the EG folks the only one who's still

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alive if he says I can tell you about it

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I'll tell you about it and so dick

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D'Amato goes to see her Greer okay so

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this is um this is somebody that is now

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being contacted who's active within EG

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one of the top three you know yeah one

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of the three one of the G's yeah one of

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the G's right and and he's like herb

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Greer meets with the motto and says yeah

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you know I don't remember any of that

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Flying Saucer stuff but if Al says it

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okay you can go ahead and meet with him

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he has my permission well he went back

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met with uh with Al O'Donnell Al

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O'Donnell wouldn't tell him anything we

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shut it down I don't know really why

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because I never got the straight story

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from either of the two parties but he

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clammed up so he's not talking to

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D'Amato he won't talk to me anymore uh

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at least for a long time and maybe

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that's the end of it for the story well

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it's not the end of it a couple years

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later

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I start hearing uh hints that

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um Al O'Donnell had changed his story

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that he's telling a different version of

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it the way it came about is there's a

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journalist named Annie Jacobson and

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she's a what his writer for the LA Times

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had a good reputation she started

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working on a book about area 51. in 2007

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she says she heard from a relative that

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there was a group called The roadrunners

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well I'd been reporting on him for a

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couple of years the road runners are all

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these veterans who had worked out at

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Area 51 they'd worked for the CIA they'd

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work for different contractors test

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pilots uh had high level security

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clearances had toiled an obscurity out

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at that base to protect the Americans

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it's that's where the cold war was won

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is out there on the U2 and then the a12

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and the Blackbird planes and later

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stealth but so all these all these

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normal projects that are like you know

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really specialized reconnaissance

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platforms plain super fast super high

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that's what the road runners is is there

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like yeah road runners have worked at

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Area 51 to develop these spy planes that

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helped us win the Cold War and they'd

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worked on a lot of other CIA Monkey

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Business and Technology out there at

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Area 51 a lot of really interesting

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things like monkey businessman and

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Monkey Business I had the ultimate

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respect for all those men and women even

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though we've done these stories about

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Lazar and 50 and the saucers and all

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that which they didn't hold in very high

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regard but they invited me in 2005 to

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their annual event it was not open to

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the public but the TD Barnes was the

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head of the road runners at the time and

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he invited me to go to this event where

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they all got together and I was the

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first pressed person to allow allowed in

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it I was the first to bring a camera in

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there and they did the first on-camera

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interviews ever about the programs they

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worked on they got permission for the

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CIA to talk to me and was awesome I did

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stories that that year in 05 again in 06

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and 07 07 somebody tells Annie Jacobson

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that the roadrunners exist and she

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started pursuing a story thinking that

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she's the first one on the on the trail

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and she's and she puts together a really

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good book called Area 51 and uncensored

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history She interviewed dozens of these

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guys a lot of the people that I had

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interviewed before and others beyond

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that she dug up a lot of documents and

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the history of the base and programs

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that going on out there and she puts

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together this book and it's terrific

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uh up until the last seven pages and the

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last seven pages of her book she tells a

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story about Al O'Donnell without naming

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it except the story she tells that Al

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O'Donnell shared with her is very

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different from the one he told me years

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before okay okay but did you know that

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um did you know that Annie had it sounds

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like a great book I should read it did

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you know that she had got a hold of this

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guy that you had gotten a hold of how

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many decades before no I didn't I didn't

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know that she was in touch with him I

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knew she was talking to the other guys

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because she had wanted to talk to me for

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the book too you know I'd done a lot of

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reporting on array 51 so I knew she was

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talking to TD and the other roadrunners

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you have no idea that Al O'Donnell was

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one of them because he wasn't part of

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the roadrunners he wasn't part of the

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group look man people could this is why

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I'm glad we record sessions like this

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because people could uh

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they would conserve so much of their

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energy and time if they just went back

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and went to you about what you'd had

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done before what and that's the thing

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that really helps me is that you have

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done a lot of this before so now we're

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at a point where we got a book the book

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is really good it's it's you know kind

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of explaining all of this what's the and

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she got oh and she got Al O'Donnell but

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doesn't name him so go hold on has the

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world ever heard the name Al O'Donnell

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yet about this yeah it's come out a

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couple of times I confided in a couple

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of people uh about Al O'Donnell and what

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was coming and just keep it quiet

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somebody spilled it anyway in fact it

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came out at the citizens hearing that

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you were part of are you serious it came

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out in testimony there and they quoted

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me as telling them the story they used

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the name without my permission